Jack Altman 25 min

AI Meets SaaS with Jack Altman, CEO of Lattice


Learn about AI's impact on HR in the SaaS industry. Hear from Jack Altman, CEO of Lattice, about balancing technology and people and his view on the most exciting AI innovations in the market.



0:00

Hi, everyone. I'm Nick Meida, CEO of GainSight.

0:02

I'm excited to welcome you to the next edition of our new web series, AI Meet

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SAS,

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where we talk about how this incredible world of AI innovation

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applies to softwares and service companies,

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where there's unique questions to answer around pricing, roadmap,

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customer buy-in around privacy and security.

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Each time I'm featuring somebody I really respect,

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let's think about AI in their own business.

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Today, I've got Jack Altman.

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Jack is the CEO and co-founder of Lattice.

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By the way, we use Lattice internally.

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He's a huge fan.

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Lattice is leading People Success platform,

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which I love that term since we're customer success,

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that's on a mission to build cultures where employees and their companies

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thrive.

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So super cool mission.

0:41

Great to see you, Jack.

0:42

Thanks for having me.

0:43

And we also love using GainSight.

0:45

There you go.

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I got it right back.

0:47

Mutual of fast, I love it.

0:48

So we always like to start with a nice breaker.

0:51

So I'll say that I think Lattice just turned eight this month, which is pretty

0:55

cool.

0:56

Do you remember anything about you turning eight on the personal side years ago

1:00

So I'm pretty sure this was an eighth birthday because I did a few of these.

1:05

But I loved bowling when I was that age and I did a bunch of bowling birthday

1:09

parties.

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And I actually, I think when I was like 11 or 12,

1:14

I was even in a little bowling league, which is like a ridiculous thing to

1:17

think back on.

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But I loved bowling.

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But I thought a bowling birthday party when you're like eight years old,

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it's like an arcade and cake and there's bumpers because you're eight and it's

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awesome.

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I love it.

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I was going to ask about the bumpers.

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And I actually still like bowling.

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It's fine.

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I'm not good at it, but it's fun.

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It's a good place to hang out.

1:34

Cyber is great.

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Yeah, no shame in bumpers.

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I love that.

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Some of my adult friends still use bumpers.

1:39

So OK, so we want to talk about AI.

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I'm actually going to turn the first question over to something who's

1:44

our head of product management for AI GainSight.

1:47

Thanks, Nick.

1:48

Hi, Jack.

1:49

So my first question for you, Jack, is how has AI

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impacted tech in the HR industry?

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And more specifically also, how is Lattice using AI today?

2:00

Yeah, well, something that we've done for a while on the analytics side is

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using it

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for sentiment analysis.

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So Lattice collects a ton of data.

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And a lot of that is in written form.

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And so on, things like an engagement survey or something like that,

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you can get specific answers in a dropdown,

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but there's a lot of free form.

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And sentiment analysis is like a really great tool that is quite accurate in

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most cases.

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Not perfect, but it's quite accurate to basically just give you general pulses

2:30

across a population.

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You wouldn't want to use it for a particular piece of text

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necessarily, but across populations, it can be really useful.

2:38

I think in general, one of the first places

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we're going to start to see this current wave of AI really matter

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will be probably on extracting insights from the data that

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exists in HR systems.

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And so this is one example, but also crossing different sets of data

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around your people and pulling out interesting insights or flagging data

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that was otherwise hard to get.

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I think AI is really well suited for that.

3:06

Another area where I think AI is well suited for,

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but I don't know that we know yet how it'll get implemented is text generation.

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And so when I chart, for example, one of the obvious concepts that comes up,

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which to me is a very open question, is, should we have AI generated

3:26

performance reviews?

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To be totally honest about it, it kind of gives me the heebie-jeebies

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because my own experience as a manager is that the process of writing itself

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is where so much of the value comes in the performance conversation.

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The writing of it is a piece, but it's the thinking and the distillation

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of what's the advice, what's the feedback, what's the recognition I want to

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give somebody,

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and then going and having that conversation.

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And so that doesn't mean that I'm particularly against it.

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It just means that I think as you consider concepts like this

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and this applies all over the place, I'm sure there's applications or analogs

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in a gain site context, you just have to be careful that you aren't using AI

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to remove the human parts of the loop that are extremely important

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and instead are using it to support and further distill the parts that are most

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important.

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So in performance reviews, if there's a way to use AI to spend more of your

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time

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thinking about what matters most and having a better conversation, all for it,

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but just replacing the human part of the conversation,

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I don't know that that gets us where we want to go.

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I love that. I've thought a lot about that because obviously a lot of users,

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and I do my reviews.

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And I always feel like the reviews, there are a lot of works,

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it's sort of you almost procrastinate them to the last minute.

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And then I do them and they're so incredibly valuable.

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But I'm with you, Jack, that there's a human element where it forces me to

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think about

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when I'm really writing and think about my team and what's most constructive

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for them.

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So I do think there's some danger in just totally outsourcing it to the AI.

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So the other thing I found, by the way, just as a lot of users is like,

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we have 1,300 people in the company, so I don't know how many comments we get

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in our service,

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but let's say it's 5,000.

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And so I'm assuming this is what you're seeing, too, Jack,

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which is very high volume data.

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I'm not going to click through, maybe I would every single survey,

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but I use the sentiment analysis and things like that to just understand what

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the big trends are.

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So I'm guessing that's the type of use case you're seeing, right?

5:25

Yeah, definitely. I think that's exactly it.

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And yeah, it's sort of like, can the AI go to the gym for me?

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It's like, well, they could, but you got to go to the gym.

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I think one other area where AI will matter in HR tech,

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but I actually think this is going to just be an all software,

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will be helping users get data in and out of systems more easily,

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and helping configure the systems more easily.

5:54

So you take a product like Gainsight, which is incredibly powerful

6:00

and incredibly rich.

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It has a lot that's involved in setting up the tool in the way that a user

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wants.

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And so a product like yours, and also, I think a product like Lattice's,

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which is also a heavily involved product,

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you could imagine a world where an HR leader or a customer success or BizOps

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leader for you

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was able to use natural language as an interface to say,

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hey, I want the performance for you to be set up this way.

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I want, you know, and a new employee onboarding for our HRIS to look like XYZ,

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and I want these things to happen in these cases.

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And then it goes and configures that system.

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I think this will be one of the things also that I think AI will be really well

6:45

equipped to do,

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is make these systems much more usable.

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It's so interesting.

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It's funny because science and other smiling,

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because that's one of the big things we're working on,

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which is like a setup assistant for that exact exact example.

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We demoed some of our conference.

6:57

So we definitely are thinking alike.

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This is a little bit off-script, but I'm curious, like the chat UI,

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chat as a UI, you know, does that, you know, obviously we're getting more used

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to that with,

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you know, consumer applications.

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Does that become more of the UI for SAS and like, what's the mix of traditional

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you know, menus and dropdowns and filters versus chat?

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I think we'll, we're going to all learn together where the boundaries are.

7:22

I think a point and click has been a very,

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you know, it's been a very good UI as well, like GUI's work.

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So there's a lot to be said for that.

7:34

I think natural language is going to work in more than zero places.

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And right now you can basically use it in the way we're talking about in zero

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places.

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So I don't think you'll use it in 98% of places,

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and I don't think you'll use it in zero percent of places.

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So I don't know what the boundary will be,

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and I expect that it will have some, you know, S curve adoption at some,

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you know, and get up to some rate that I don't know what it is.

8:00

I sort of suspect, if I had to place a bet now, that it will be more important

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on the admin side of these kinds of systems than on the user side.

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And that really what you'll want to do is get away from the heaviest usage

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situations, but on the light usage situations,

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you just want a good product to make the, you know, the input output formats

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we're all familiar with work.

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But we'll see. But that would be my guess.

8:25

It's a great thoughtful answer. Yeah, I like that a lot.

8:27

So you alluded to this idea in performance reviews of

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there's some things that can be automated, but some parts of it are really

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understanding

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that human on the other side, and really understanding like their goals,

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and also the value of the company and where they're trying to get to.

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So you probably know, is like a game site, one of our things we talk about is

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human first,

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our company purpose is to be living proof.

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You can win in business while being human first, very, very deep in our mission

8:52

deep in the water, a game site.

8:53

And I read something recently where you, you know, you talked about some,

8:57

how people are thinking about concerns around AI replacing people,

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which if we're being real, is a concern a lot of employees have.

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You know, what do you think? You know, where's that can happen?

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Is there an S curve of replacement that's going to happen?

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How do you think about that?

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Some jobs that are done today will get replaced.

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That doesn't mean that all the people who are doing those jobs have to get

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replaced.

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And this is also why like societal change or technological change happening

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very rapidly

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just leads to a lot of like structural displacement that just like takes a lot

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of

9:32

years to work through because people need to get retrained and things like that

9:35

But you think about the jobs happening at game site today, like how many of

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those jobs existed

9:39

10 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, like zero, right?

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I mean, at some point you get back to the number zero.

9:46

I guess sales is kind of, there's some things that are.

9:50

Yeah, some things were there, but most weren't.

9:51

Yeah. And so like, you know, that we're going to go through versions of that.

9:56

AI, you know, with or without AI, that is happening.

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It's just that what's challenging with AI is that the anticipated speed at

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which that's going

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to happen is going to be so much faster.

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And so there's a there's a very valid fear that, you know, overnight something

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could happen that,

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you know, drastically reduces the need for humans in a particular area.

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What I would say though is you it's really that while it will likely happen in

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some areas,

10:26

A, it's not it shouldn't be the case that total employment goes down in the

10:31

medium term,

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even if it doesn't the very short term.

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But hopefully there are more jobs created as a result of this, like there have

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been from the

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internet, which also replaced a lot of jobs that no longer exist.

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But the other thing is that it's really hard to predict what's going to do what

10:47

An easy example of this.

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So like, you know, co-pilot software engineering, people are way more

10:52

productive.

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Like once people figure out how to use co-pilot, they're just more productive.

10:56

Totally.

10:57

So what happens in a world where all engineers are twice as productive?

11:01

Do you think we get half as many engineers?

11:03

No, definitely not.

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We're going to have way more engineers because it's going to be more valuable

11:08

to companies.

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There's going to be more demand for this more productive asset.

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Or at least that's what I think.

11:14

And I think that has been like born out over time as engineering has gotten

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more

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productive.

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We haven't gotten fewer engineers each year.

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We get way more.

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So, you know, it's hard to call it.

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There will be some amount of this.

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And I think we all need to be thoughtful as we go and through it together.

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But like, I think just like having a general, you know, I'm a general techno

11:34

optimist,

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whatever the right term is for that.

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And I sort of believe that valuable steps forward are going to be good for

11:41

everyone.

11:42

I love that.

11:43

It's a really good point.

11:44

And there's some nuance about the medium term and the short term and things

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like that.

11:48

So really interesting.

11:49

You know, one of the other things you wrote about actually, you spoke about at

11:53

SaaSter,

11:53

it was really cool post if you haven't seen it, which is some misconceptions

11:57

about SaaS.

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And one of them, which is interesting, you know,

12:00

probably counterintuitive to some people, I'll just read it,

12:02

says, "Misconception number five, we should invest to avoid tech debt that will

12:07

cripple us later."

12:09

So how do you think about tech debt?

12:10

And then how does it connect at all with AI?

12:13

Well, what I meant by talking about, what I meant by we should avoid having

12:19

tech debt is

12:20

it's not avoiding debt isn't free.

12:24

Avoiding any kind of debt doesn't come for free.

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And when you're an early stage company, like it's a good time to take on debt

12:32

in order to

12:33

increase the speed and likelihood of getting product market fit, which is, you

12:38

know,

12:38

the binary yes/no, you have a company that exists or you don't.

12:42

And so given there's that binary moment of either we're going home or we, you

12:48

know,

12:48

live to see, you know, another day, you want to do basically everything you can

12:53

And so I think it's not that you want to go out of your way to incur tech debt,

12:57

but

12:58

it's worth it to take some shortcuts at the beginning because odds are the

13:03

things that

13:04

are going to work.

13:04

There's a good chance that what you're building is you're going to pivot away

13:07

from anyway.

13:08

And so, you know, you might want to give yourself a chance to have four shots

13:12

on goal for different

13:13

product areas and you want to build them as quickly as possible.

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And those aren't always in the cleanest, most long-term durable way.

13:19

And the truth is you know, it's painful later, but it's a total champagne

13:25

problem to when you

13:25

have hundreds of engineers go back and, you know, spend a year paying down tech

13:30

debt with

13:30

a portion of them.

13:31

And so that was like the nature of that comment was just that it's not

13:35

something to be

13:37

scared of. It's actually a tool. It is a tool to use like financial debt that

13:43

can be a big asset.

13:44

And then how do you think about AI? Because obviously we're all thinking about

13:47

how to innovate

13:48

and AI. Most of us don't really have a clue what customers are going to want in

13:51

a long term.

13:52

Should we embrace the same mentality of not worrying so much about tech debt

13:55

and focusing on trying things?

14:00

I think we should. I think it's easier for smaller companies to embrace trying

14:08

things than big

14:09

companies. I know you've read Innovator Dilemma too and like, you know, you

14:14

probably are feeling,

14:15

you know, in the middle of a small startup and a big enterprise kind of like I

14:20

am. And you know,

14:21

you see both sides of it where like, "Can we really divert resources to this

14:26

thing that's not

14:26

going to work?" But also like, "We've got to keep trying and there's so much

14:29

edge here if this does

14:31

work." So, you know, aside from the should we, there's just like who will. I

14:36

think in a lot of cases,

14:38

it's really important that companies like GainSight do innovate. Because it

14:47

seems to me that in

14:48

more categories than not, it's the GainSight stage companies who are most

14:54

likely to benefit most.

14:57

Because you already have the distribution, you already have the workflows, you

15:00

already have,

15:01

you know, the customers who want the thing. And so now you can add AI into

15:04

something like

15:05

GainSight. That's a much easier hill to climb than starting from scratch and

15:12

building GainSight

15:14

and doing AI. And so I think if the midsize companies can muster the ability to

15:21

do AI,

15:22

this is a type of trend that will benefit those companies greatly. So I guess

15:26

to the

15:26

should point, yeah, I think most should. And I think particularly most mid

15:30

stage, you know,

15:31

not that obviously I know GainSight is late stage, but midsize compared to like

15:34

a Microsoft or something

15:35

like that, should be working hard to do that. Because that's, if you think

15:40

about it logically,

15:41

like that's where so much the value ought to accrue. Yeah, it makes total sense

15:44

. Yeah, it's hard

15:44

for the young companies because they don't have the data and the workflow.

15:47

Although I'm sure some

15:48

of them will thrive. And it's harder for the big companies because of innov

15:51

ators to lemma. So

15:52

I, by the way, compared to Microsoft, I think we're still a tiny, tiny company.

15:55

So it's all like an

15:56

eight year old. It's like a bowling. Exactly. So okay, but speaking of that, I

16:01

'm going to turn

16:01

it back to Shonton around like innovating in AI. Right. And Jack, so who have

16:06

you seen that's been

16:08

doing some of the most innovative work in AI in recent times? Well, there are,

16:15

I'll give an example

16:18

that's like maybe talked about less. I think obviously there's a lot of really

16:22

cool like,

16:23

there's a lot of cool like companies building models that we all know. There's

16:27

a lot of like

16:27

generative AI companies that are like specific applications on top of those

16:31

models building things.

16:32

But something I have found really cool recently is a company that where I know

16:41

the founders well

16:42

who are relatively early stage like, you know, like series A stage and their

16:48

product itself has

16:49

nothing really to do with AI. But they are using AI to the fullest extent to

16:54

run the company that

16:55

I've seen from any other company that I can think of where they're using it to

17:00

not just like have

17:02

internal tooling, but they're using it to do sales and they're using it to do

17:07

support and they're,

17:09

you know, finding all of these ways to make use of AI products to build the

17:14

most efficient business

17:15

possible. But what's interesting about it is it's not necessarily just small

17:20

edges.

17:20

There are certain business models that will become possible that weren't

17:25

possible before

17:27

because they didn't work when you needed to scale them with humans. But if you

17:30

can scale them with

17:31

AI, the math can work all of a sudden. So, you know, you brought up SaaS or

17:36

something like Jason

17:38

Lumpkin has talked about is like, you know, depending on your ECV, you just

17:42

like can't fund

17:43

sales teams. Like it just doesn't work to fund a sales team against a $2,000 EC

17:48

V.

17:48

But if you have a very inexpensive AI bot that is able to do quite a lot of the

17:55

sales,

17:56

even at 50% the effectiveness, but at 2% of the cost, maybe a 2K ECV company is

18:02

possible. And so,

18:02

maybe new products will exist not because the AI let us build the products, but

18:07

because the AI

18:07

let us distribute the products. And so, I think we're going to see some

18:11

surprising things where

18:13

it's just like hard to call it right now because it is applying to so many

18:18

cracks and

18:19

crowdsets of businesses right now. And it's like, you know, there's just a lot

18:22

that could go from

18:23

here. So, that's been a really cool thing for me to see. I love that. And it's

18:26

kind of the next

18:27

way where the internet allowed distribution that wasn't possible before and

18:30

there's certain x phase

18:31

there. So, it's sort of a good setup to one of our last questions, which is,

18:35

how do you think

18:36

about that post sales experience at Lattice? You guys really focused on that.

18:41

It's also,

18:41

I'm sure, you know, a lot of people and a lot of, you know, people working

18:45

together,

18:45

workflow and all that. Like, what are the big opportunities in the post sales

18:48

world run AI?

18:49

I think there are at least a cut. There are probably many, but at least a

18:55

couple that I can

18:56

think of. One is products like Gainsite help a huge amount. And even with that,

19:05

it is still

19:06

so messy to find all of the data about the customer that is relevant. You don't

19:12

know who knows who,

19:13

you don't know what exec has talked to, which exec at the customer, you don't

19:18

know what exactly

19:19

all happened in the presale. You don't know if the champion was a user of ours

19:23

from a different

19:24

company that they worked at. There's just like all this data and a lot of it's

19:28

useful. And

19:32

finding all of that data and surfacing what I should care about, I think is

19:35

something that is

19:36

on top of a platform like yours, I think could really elevate what's possible

19:42

for

19:42

a customer success person or just for a company. So I think there's going to be

19:47

something around

19:48

like getting the real totality of the picture, you know, like those moments

19:52

where you're like

19:52

trying to do a renewal and you realize your head of people is best friends with

19:56

their head of

19:57

people and you're like, oh, I wish we knew that three months ago. You know, it

20:00

was just like

20:01

stuff like that that happens all the time. I do also to this other point, I

20:07

think a lot of

20:08

a lot of customer success looks a bit like what I was just describing with, you

20:15

know,

20:16

that last example where it's not that you're, you know, going out and selling

20:20

them hard or you

20:21

can replace the human touch with a bot, but there is a process to these things

20:26

to be followed.

20:27

And when you've got a small team with a lot of accounts, trying to track all of

20:32

these in systems,

20:33

balls just get dropped. There's just like no way around it. Like, you know,

20:37

like Lattice has 5,000

20:38

or 5,500 customers. There's just no way that all of those, there's no way that

20:42

if we fully

20:43

inspected, you know, all of those that we would be happy with every single one,

20:47

just, you know,

20:48

it's the same thing on the sales side on the pre-sale side too. There's no way

20:51

every lead is

20:51

being maximized. But with AI, it's possible that you can drastically close the

20:58

gap of

20:59

what we aspire to be doing with each customer and what really is happening

21:02

through things like

21:03

chatbots, maybe in many cases nudges to the rep to like get them on calls at

21:07

the right time to

21:08

maybe suggest calls that, you know, we wouldn't have thought of things like

21:11

that. So I think

21:13

there's a ton there. I love that. Yeah, it's funny because we have a, since you

21:17

're a customer a few

21:17

weeks, we have a feature coming up called cheat sheet, cheat sheet, which is I

21:21

think the beginning

21:21

of what you just talked about, it kind of builds an exact prep based on all the

21:25

dating gain side.

21:25

It's actually pretty incredible how accurate it is. You know, I call it 95%

21:30

accurate.

21:30

Shump it better than it's better than not having it. Exactly. So it's a shot

21:34

that I went

21:34

few weeks from now. I think it's shipping, right? Yes, November, mid of

21:37

November is when you'd have

21:39

it. There you go. Try it out. So want to get everyone out on time, including

21:43

Jack. So thank you so

21:44

much. It's been incredible. I was like to end with some word association just

21:48

for fun.

21:48

So three things. The first one, I think, is more tidy personally. So super

21:53

smash brothers.

21:55

Tell me what that brings up to you. Yeah. I don't, you know, I think I had that

22:00

as like my

22:01

a fun thing about me. And it just sort of like stuck somewhere. And so I do

22:07

love that game. I

22:09

played that game so much as a kid. And I did get, I got good at it. I really

22:13

got good at that game.

22:14

And I loved it. It's been too long. But I do want now I've got two little kids

22:19

now.

22:19

And so between that and work, I have not had the video game hours that I want.

22:24

But I do dream of the future where I'm right back in it. I love it. Human first

22:28

. What's that mean to you?

22:29

Oh, I think I mean, it, it's sort of a, it's a way of to me, what comes to mind

22:37

is it's a way

22:37

of building companies. And it's sort of like one of my driving principles when

22:41

I think about building

22:42

a company, which is I believe that people are the most important input to a

22:47

successful business. And

22:48

I think a, a people first company is going to be more likely to have a winning

22:53

business. And so

22:54

that's just sort of, you know, when I think about are you, you know, you're,

22:58

you got your people,

22:59

you've got your, your customers, you got shareholders, I believe the center of

23:03

that flywheel is people.

23:05

And then everything else falls from that. Love it. AI. Last one.

23:10

I mean, you know, it's funny in the context of human first, but I'll, there's a

23:14

lot you could

23:15

say about it, but just to put it next to human first. My hope is that AI is

23:20

used in a way that

23:21

brings more humanity forward and that it takes away the things that people don

23:25

't want to be doing.

23:26

And it lets people spend more of their time when the things people do want to

23:29

be doing.

23:29

You know, one of the things I was thinking about, as you were asking about tech

23:32

debt,

23:32

is it would be an emit, like engineers like working on a lot of things.

23:36

Sometimes they like

23:37

working on tech debt, but probably less often do they like like cleaning up

23:41

tech debt from six

23:42

years ago than building a new product or, you know, something else that's more

23:46

interesting.

23:47

And so I think my hope is that there's a lot of ways that AI does a lot of the

23:51

stuff that is,

23:51

you know, less desirable for people to spend their time on. And so I hope it

23:55

leads to even more,

23:56

you know, human first companies. Love it. Jack, this has been amazing.

24:00

Learned so much myself. I'm sure the audience does did as well. And I look for

24:03

the future,

24:04

whereas your kids grow, you can go bowling with the bumpers and play super

24:07

smash bros with them.

24:08

So till then, we'll figure out AI and thank you so much, Jack. Thanks,

24:12

Shantan. And thanks to everyone for watching. Sounds great. Thanks for having

24:16

me.

24:16

Okay, great. I think we had a good that was awesome, man. Thank you so much.

24:22

My pleasure. Funny. Like, obviously, we didn't talk about this live before,

24:25

but gosh, the alignment's amazing. That really was great. Super natural. So

24:30

definitely.

24:31

We need AI alignment. That's key. So, yeah, I'll make it. Yeah, totally agree.

24:36

The comment on game size companies being the new AI startup subsets is

24:41

unpointed. Throw that on the website. I actually think it's true. The caveat is

24:48

that I think

24:48

the big companies, the real big companies ought to have the advantage. I just

24:53

don't believe that

24:54

they'll be able to, or it'll be much harder for most of those companies to turn

24:58

the boat.

24:59

Although the Fang or whatever they're called now, they're doing a surprisingly

25:04

good job,

25:04

but the next rung, we'll see. But yeah, the game sites should clean up. It

25:09

should be very

25:10

hard as a startup to do AI game site. Love it. All right, Shantan. Keep going.

25:16

Exactly.

25:17

Awesome, man. Okay. Anything I can do to the replay of the favor, let me know

25:20

and we'll talk to you soon.

25:21

Sounds good. Thanks so much. Bye. Thanks, everybody.

25:25

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